Curse

Grim Lich · Aug 07, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Just tried it out, using it with AotL gives 11 level 21 minions, 10 lvl 20s with +19 damage with OoU. Too freaking awesome.

Yes I know you can have gotten that with cons, but where is the fun in that.

I've seen my Lvl 21 Fiends crit 100s on lvl 20s.

Gill Halendt · Aug 07, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

It all started with Double Dragon... Since then, I'm yet to understand this new tendency of adding +1/+2 to attributes with random skills... What's next? FGJ to give +2 to Tactics, so that Warriors will care about Tactics again? /endsarcasm

But whatever...

New Masochism itself might be good (I find playing MM boring, and adding even a minimum sacrifice to all the skills given to the poor-AI driven heroes seems pretty dangerous to me), problem is the previous version was useful and used in a lots of builds that now work less efficiently.

Nice though this buff may be, it was pretty much unneeded.

zelgadissan · Aug 07, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Old Masochism > new Masochism. Couldn't they have done this with some skill nobody cares about?

BTW, I haven't been in-game yet so something I just thought of - this skill lasts 10 seconds on secondary necros, would they get 2e on surrounding deaths?

Life Bringing · Aug 07, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

The new Masochism actually kicks an extreme amount of ass. It makes Discordway so much more powerful through a better minion wall, more death nova damage, stronger discord, and higher energy management.

Trader of Secrets · Aug 07, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

but is there room for masochism to be put in the discord builds?

Shayne Hawke · Aug 07, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

The previous function of the skill was more unique than the new function, I think, and I'd like it switched back.

silavor · Aug 07, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

The old function also didn't have a use anymore, since sacrifice skills require 1 energy now. Sure, it meant you could gain some free extra energy when using sac skills, but isn't free extra energy what soul reaping is for?

Calista Blackblood · Aug 07, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Old Masochism > new Masochism. Couldn't they have done this with some skill nobody cares about?

BTW, I haven't been in-game yet so something I just thought of - this skill lasts 10 seconds on secondary necros, would they get 2e on surrounding deaths?

Looking at a W/N with 2 Soul reaping is scary.. Yeah it works

Xenomortis · Aug 07, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by silavor

The old function also didn't have a use anymore, since sacrifice skills require 1 energy now. Sure, it meant you could gain some free extra energy when using sac skills, but isn't free extra energy what soul reaping is for?

Not quite. The sacrifice skills that didn't matter had their cost reduced to 1 energy. However, Dark Pact, Demonic Flesh and Blood Renewal are crap. Order of Pain, Dark Fury, Order of the Vampire, Blood Ritual and probably some others did not have their cost reduced and three of those required a lot of spamming.
Blood is Power only has a 1 energy cost, but you seldom needed much energy with BiP builds anyway.

Unbelievable though it may be, there are times when Soul Reaping won't cut it. Usually it's with blood magic builds that require an insane amount of casting to get anything done and it was then that Masochism was useful.
Now it just adds a boost to builds that didn't need it and didn't ask for it.

It's hard to see the balance team as anything but a crude computer program, randomly selecting skills every month or two and applying some new effects or changing variables at random. Popular ones seem to be "+x to attribute y" or "does z damage +condition for w seconds".

Burst Cancel · Aug 07, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Looking at a W/N with 2 Soul reaping is scary.. Yeah it works

Why is it scary? You're wasting a skill slot to gain a net of 1e every 20 seconds.

Xenomortis · Aug 07, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Why is it scary? You're wasting a skill slot to gain a net of 1e every 20 seconds.

Well you could get 7e in one casting over the 20 seconds, but it'd be quite unlikely.

Burst Cancel · Aug 07, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Well you could get 7e in one casting over the 20 seconds, but it'd be quite unlikely.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something about the Soul Reaping mechanic, but I don't see how this is possible. SR is limited to three triggers every 15 seconds. Masochism @0SR lasts for 10 seconds, or 12s with 20% mod. Even assuming three things die the instant Maso goes active, you'd still have to wait 15 seconds before you could gain any energy again, and Maso will have worn off by then. Unless you can extend the duration of Maso to at least 15 seconds, I don't see how you could possibly gain energy more than three times in one casting.

Xenomortis · Aug 07, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Masochism @0SR lasts for 10 seconds, or 12s with 20% mod.

Gah. My mistake, you put "every 20 seconds" and I, for some reason, took that as Masochism lasting 20 seconds at 0 SR, even though I knew otherwise having checked its stats earlier.

Now I have to clean up the blood on my desk and get my head looked at...

Necromas · Aug 07, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I like flesh golem a bit more with the masochism update now too. He goes up to level 29 without consumables/blessings/mod procs.

A level 29 flesh golem crits hard and often against enemies lower level than it.

Oh, and 18 death magic means 11 minion cap, that's an extra level 20 bone fiend/horror!

Hugh Manatee · Aug 08, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I get it formerly being useful on an orders bar but I haven't seen an orders necro in like 2 years(not since people stopped flocking to TotPK/SF... Even then you have other E-Management options

I like the new functionality but maybe they could have altered verata's sacrifice's functionality... I mean does anyone take VS anymore? <3 minions it puts Heal breeze on them but more and it takes 60 seconds to recharge.... weak...

aga · Aug 08, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

I don't get this change, here was I thinking that a-net may nerf discord a little (by giving longer recharge or something)...but instead they do this =P Maybe they forgot about discord when they did this, or maybe, just maybe they don't care about PvE enough.

Chthon · Aug 08, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

1. The new Masochism is incredibly powerful for minion builds. An 11th minion, plus 2 levels on all the minions, and all the armor/health/damage that comes with that, plus a stronger OoU and BotM. It's really something.

2. Is miss the old Masochism. It was a very cool and useful skill. One of the best in the SR line for sure. I'd rather seem Masochism reverted and some other skill reworked into what the new masochism does. I like this idea:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

I like the new functionality but maybe they could have altered verata's sacrifice's functionality... I mean does anyone take VS anymore?

3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silavor

The old function also didn't have a use anymore, since sacrifice skills require 1 energy now.

Virtually all of the important life sac skills, most notably BotM and Orders, keep their energy costs. The old Masocism was still quite useful.

4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Looking at a W/N with 2 Soul reaping is scary.. Yeah it works

That strikes me as a bug. You shouldn't be able to get another class's priamary attribute any way, any how. That said, 2 SR for 10 sec is so weak that I don't really care about.

5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The new Masochism actually kicks an extreme amount of ass. It makes Discordway so much more powerful

An extra +2 death magic is not enough to make Discordway good.

Calista Blackblood · Aug 08, 2009, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That strikes me as a bug. You shouldn't be able to get another class's priamary attribute any way, any how. That said, 2 SR for 10 sec is so weak that I don't really care about.

Clearly isn't right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Why is it scary? You're wasting a skill slot to gain a net of 1e every 20 seconds.

Because upon casting Masochism on a warrior the K menu changes to add "2Soul Reaping".Just seems like anet couldn't be bothered to complete coding.Also it's not like anyone would actually attempt to use Masochism on a secondary necro.

Note: There is no energy gain

syphonus · Aug 08, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Because upon casting Masochism on a warrior the K menu changes to add "2Soul Reaping".Just seems like anet couldn't be bothered to complete coding.Also it's not like anyone would actually attempt to use Masochism on a secondary necro.

Note: There is no energy gain

Can you drop points into it?

zelgadissan · Aug 08, 2009, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

Can you drop points into it?

Went and tested this by pulling all my points out of Strength, ready to dump them into Soul Reaping. The gamebreakingness of this would have been epic.

They do at least have an inherent code barring you from adding points to other primaries.